Quirk: From now on, silence is highly advisable if you want to remain here. Quirk: All right. The first point on the agenda, and the most important, is that of religious roleplay. Quirk: There were no fewer than three emails covering different aspects of religious RP. The first aspect I think we should tackle is that of religious intermarriage. If anyone has comments on this, please petition now. Quirk: That is of course, intermarriage between partners of different faiths. Someone says in Harnic, "I think cross faith marriages should not be performed by NPC clergy. And PC clergy who do so should be looked down upon, with the possible exception of Peonians." Someone says in Harnic, "In the Harn material, it is not done, and of course marriage is supposed to be a ceremomy of blessing by one god." Quirk: Fair comment. Next? Someone says in Harnic, "The way it is now i dont see a problem with it, As long as your not going to intermarry someone of the "dark" faiths.." Someone says in Harnic, "Like Larani marring a Agrikan, not going to happen, so no problem i guess." Quirk: Remember everyone when you're done speaking to drop the amulet. Someone says in Harnic, "But a Peoni, or save-nkor larani, etc, marrying each other, due to this game is only losely based on Harnworld, i dont see a problem with it." Someone says in Harnic, "I think it's a matter of how we want to handle it; more Harn based or more based on 'modern' marriages where faiths don't really matter too too much ..." Someone says in Harnic, "And I guess that if, say, a Laranian and a Knorrian got married, one could decide how they wanted to react to it IC." Someone says in Harnic, "But with low amounts of followers in certain faiths, as well as the possibility of semi-isolation, I'm not sure if we could enforce same-faith marriage too strictly." You are all being put in a list. Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "I take it that there is nothing definitely written in the harn material, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation?" Quirk: Actually Harn is quite clear on the topic. Quirk: And it's hardcore: no interfaith marriages. Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "So aren't we hardcore when it comes to all things harn?" Revus: Indeed, hence the need for input. Revus: We want something that preserves the 'feeling' of the Harn inter-faith marriage is a no-no, but will be workable for players too. Revus: Who may naturally want a relationship. Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "I can easily argue both sides here. However, I'll stick with harns side and say, that these gods are where our entire belief system is founded upon. Even reading how we get along with various gods outside of our own religion is quite clear." Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "And I have yet to read a single write up that says, "these other guys beliefs are correct"." Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "However, if you don't want to limit interaction how about creating a little table or chart thingy." Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "Acceptable, tolerable, frowned upon and blasphemy .. like a matrix of all the religions and check of which one fits where." Revus: *smile* Thanks for the input, that was well put. Someone says in Harnic, majestically, "Probably because I don't hold a position either way :)." Someone says in Harnic, "I think that the topic is an interesting one, and we argue it because it's very contradictory." Someone says in Harnic, "Most of us, I think, believe in kepeing true to the Harn rules as much as we can." Someone says in Harnic, "But I am for inter-faith marriage, for three big reasons." Save your comments for when you're handed the amulet folks, thanks, continue speaker. Someone says in Harnic, "First, our limited player-base makes for a hard time finding someone to marry that fits your exact religion. It might be easier with 100-200 players, but our Harn is not so populated." Someone says in Harnic, "Second, I think that Hl has created its own rules from time to time to enhance gameplay in this environment. The Harnworld game is meant for a tabletop environment, with one GM that can create whoever, and whatever he or she desires." Someone says in Harnic, "The Kath had the dragon for that reason, because the transition from tabletop to MUD is very different, and we needed something to make it balance." Someone says in Harnic, "Third (and shorter, I promise) is that I find inter-faith RP the most entertaining, and worthwhile of most interaction between all of us." The dragon was taken out of it cause we made a move towards Harn. Someone says in Harnic, "Oh, ok. Nix that one, then...but I mean it has been done before, to help gameplay." Quirk: All right, if you're done, drop the amulet. Someone says in Harnic, "I understand the need to adhere to the rules, but they shouldn't cripple certain aspects of the game in the process. There are marriages in place already that will be instantly nullified in a retroactive manner if we do this." question is, with most of those marriages were they indeed blessed by any church, in most cases that is a no. So, are they really married? Someone says in Harnic, "By the same token, players with 21st century mindsets all too often regard the religions as just another social club or an obstacle. In fact, I've seen a couple of players myself who have recently used tenets of religion to avoid the issue of joining." Someone says in Harnic, "Perhaps not. Perhaps there could be a compromise of some sort. A social stigma to be added that is indeed felt by both parties without being character destroying or marriage breaking." Someone says in Harnic, "Some faiths I can see being tolerant. Peoni for one. Save-k'nor as another. Ilvir depending on which order is making the decision." A small, golden-haired youth puts out a resin soaked torch. Revus: Past IC events cannot be retroactively nullified, but it may call into question the legitimacy of such marriages, I would agree. Someone says in Harnic, "Social stigmas can be placed, but the players alone cannot enforce those entirely. Sometimes, depending on the player or character concept, they may not be able to." Someone says in Harnic, "What if a noble married someone of a different faith? We couldn't really play out the oddity of this situation without committing breach of rank." Someone says in Harnic, "This applies, to an extent, to several social stigmas in game as well." Someone says in Harnic, "The guidelines for accepting/rejecting marriages could get lengthy though. We already have a very complex social structure in place, so if we did add a sort of social stigma to "mixed marriages", it would need to be simple by necessity." Revus: Some good points that need to be considered yes, though I would suggest that the nobility largely play by different rules than the common man. Someone says in Harnic, "I would agree with that." Someone says in Harnic, "The main faith I would suggest keeping an eye on is Sarajin." Quirk: We have limited time to discuss all the issues we were planning to, so perhaps we could move onto social stigmas and religion, particularly when people have no faith. Someone says in Harnic, "Ivinians believe themselves to be a superior human to all others, so the idea of a race stooping to marry a mongrel in a non-subservient position is bizarre at best. Especially if the mongrel was a woman who was not his warbride." Someone says in Harnic, "Ok, done." Revus: Sarajin is perhaps the most marriage prolific faith on Harn, but you're moving into more inter-racial aspects than inter-faith, but yes Someone says in Harnic, "Are we still on the inter faith marriage?" Quirk: Yes, this will be the last interfaith marriage comment. Someone says in Harnic, "I know that HRT has written something about how Siem feels about th other gods. MAybe that could be used as a template for deciding whom can marry whom." Quirk: All right. Going to put it to a vote now. Someone says in Harnic, "Will admins vote, as well?" Revus: We'll have a few more comment on this, but please keep them really brief so we can move on, a general in favor of or against mixed-marriages. Quirk: Firstly, we'll have those in favour of as little restriction as possible. Secondly, those in favour of keeping it close to Harn. Thirdly, those in favour of a course somewhere between the two. Quirk: Heh, all right, one or two more comments then. Quirk: But I promise a vote's coming soon! ;) Revus: We suck, we'll try to figure something better than darkness next time around folks, sorry Someone says in Harnic, softly, a bit raspy with cold, "Maybe no one objects to being lit?" Someone says in Harnic, "Okay, i am in favor of cross-faith marraiges (except where obviously ridiculous) BUT i think that PCs should be prepared to face the consequences if they go against the tenets of a church which wants same-faith marraiges..." Quirk: That's all of them. Someone says in Harnic, "I think the RP of falling in love and finding a mate could (and sometimes should) take precedence over some societal restriction." Someone says in Harnic, "Yes religion is important but so are the drives of teh heart." Someone says in Harnic, "Or the groin." Someone says in Harnic, "Also, a cross-faith marraige sometimes leads to the conversion of one partner to the religion of the other." Someone says in Harnic, "I'll stop there." Blackhorde - Next. Someone says in Harnic, "As a matter of fact marriage between people of different faiths is not totally unknown on Harn. I refer to 'Castles of Harn'.." Someone says in Harnic, "Qualdris 6, to those who have it." Revus: We'll be calling for a general consensus of opinion in a couple moments, after a couple remaining in the queue have spoke, for those of you who wondered about it, then we move on to next topic. Someone says in Harnic, "Personally I believe in allowing marriages between faiths that make sense. The matrix idea was excellent. The one point I really would like to state is the the rules must apply to everyone equally." Someone says in Harnic, "First of all i am also pro intermarriage but very limited. And for me it should not be equally to everyone." Someone says in Harnic, "No priest of any faith should even thinkof marrying someone out of his faith. A simple follower should have a little more room in that." Revus: Yes, clergy forsaking the teachings of their deity and marrying outside the faith is often a career ruining decision already, we concur on that. Someone says in Harnic, "Every gad has his/her aspects and his/her view on other gods, to me its simple logic to see who might marry whom of a different faith. Larani-Peoni for example is fine, as long as the larani is male and peoni female. The protection aspect and the male female protection fit. Sorry for being long." Someone says in Harnic, "God not gad." Someone says in Harnic, "Ah, it seems as if my point was just spoken. Some churches are more closely related to eachother, such as just peoni and larani." Blackhorde: Peoni is one of the few religions that do not mind being married or marrying to others. Blackhorde: The Laranian church is at odds with the Peonians at times for doing marriages they do not approve of. Someone says in Harnic, "But when you have chosen to devout yourself to a god like Ilvir, or Siem, I would think it would be unlikely that you would even consider marrying anyone else." Someone says in Harnic, "I feel that the issue of our playerbase being rather small does play a contributing factor to which characters can find suitable mates in a world with such a varying degree of religions.." Someone says in Harnic, "In that light, I'm inclined to lean towards seeing inter-marriages being feasible in our game world, but instead of looking at it as a black and white issue, whether it is a good or bad thing and should be banned or allowed.." Someone says in Harnic, "I'm not all that opposed to simply sprinkling a little leniancy where it may be considered "feasible" and just varies on a case by case basis. It could very well be the driving force in a series of plotlines between teh sects of the same church.." Quirk: I'm seeing a lot of support here for the "matrix" view of the world. Someone says in Harnic, "..one sect may feel strong towards the marriage, another may not.. internal conflict between teh he same religion, it's kind of cool in that respect." Someone says in Harnic, "Any inter-marriage is a chance to generate some kind of clerical plotline, I think, so there I say let's not forbid them." Revus: The suggested matrix idea is something we will likely consider, as the case-by-case thing does pose some difficulty for characters knowing whether going in a certain direction is feasible at all. Quirk: All right. Voting time. Firstly: those who are not in favour of restricting interfaith marriage at all, raise your hands. Someone says in Harnic, softly, a bit raspy with cold, "HUH?" Someone says in Harnic, "Please clarify." Someone raises a hand Someone raises his hand. Revus: He means to say, totally unrestricted intermarrying Someone smiles. Someone raises a hand. Someone says in Harnic, "So this is voting in favor of totally unrestricted intermarrying? (sorry to speak w/o amulet)." Quirk: Yes, this is in favour of no restrictions save what players impose on themselves. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Quirk: Please raise your hands again so we can count? Someone raises a hand Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand Quirk: All right. Those in favour of some restrictions, for example Laranians not marrying Agrikans, etc, please raise your hands now. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises her hand HIGH! Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises his hand Someone raises its hand. Someone raises a hand again. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises his hand, Again, has to agree with some restrictions. Someone is confused by these 'again' votes. Quirk: All right, those who've voted twice will be moved into this category. Someone says in Harnic, "What?" Quirk: A number of people voted for both this choice AND the last one. Someone says in Ivinian, "Sounds good.. wasn't sure what the exact options were." Quirk: We'll assume if you vote again, you're declaring your previous vote void. Heh. All right. I'll start again. The options are: No restrictions; restrictions on a faith by faith basis; Hardcore Harn. Quirk: The first vote: No restrictions. Please only raise your hand if you're truly in favour. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand Someone raises a hand. Quirk: All right. Three. Quirk: Next: those who wish some restrictions to be placed on marriages between faiths which don't get on all that well with each other. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises its hand. Someone raises a hand with aplomb, confidence, and grace. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises his hand Someone raises a hand. Someone raises his hand Quirk: All right, we have a round 15 for that vote. Someone raises a hand. Quirk: Sixteen. There's always one... Someone laughs. Someone giggles. Someone giggles. Quirk: Now those in favour of hardcore Harn rules, in which all interfaith marriages are frowned on by the church. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Someone raises a hand. Quirk: Majority seems to be in favour of some leeway, but not too much. We'll keep that result for future reference. Someone gives a round of applause. Someone says in Harnic, "Is the Navehan faith out of this?" Someone says in Harnic, "Round 2!" Revus: Navehans only marry who the church orders them to. Blackhorde: Woe to their mate. Revus: Individualists and go their own way sorts are put to death in that church ;-) Quirk: All right. Next topic at last. Thoughts on those who have no faith, or are members of an unpopular faith. Someone says in Harnic, "What if the church orders them to marry a knight, to assassinate them or somthing?" Quirk: Navehans are a special case. Please, let's move on. Quirk: Many new characters, played by people come here for the first time don't have a faith. Blackhorde: Please keep the chatter down. Quirk: On the other hand, we don't want to encourage them to remain faithless. Quirk: So, this is a discussion on the level of sanctions that should hold for people who are without a faith. Revus: Anyone else with additional comments regarding the _previous_ issue can email as per normal, we'll count your remark/vote same as anyone who voted here. Someone says in Harnic, "Some of it should be handled depending on how devout they are, but in general I'd like it to be seen as a bigger deal...partly because it promotes RP and partly because I think it would be more realistic." Someone says in Harnic, "But it's strange to see how many people there are who just 'haven't thought about it'...and if we could find ways to change that, it'd be nice. Thank you." Someone says in Harnic, "Part of the problenm is that people just aren't treating a faithless individual like the freak they are." Someone says in Harnic, "Another is that someone could easily use the excuse, "I worship all gods" and then you generally see no faith exhibited by this person in the slightest. Clergy are in theory treated better than laity but in practice aren't. Laity have no genuine reason to join a church, other than social pressure. Faith is not played out by pcs." Someone says in Harnic, "Speaking as a member of the clergy, I think it is a good thing that some start out 'faithless'." Someone says in Harnic, "It atleast gives us something to do, and might proove to be a good source of RP between the clergy PC's and those seeking to join a church." Someone says in Harnic, "But I think it should be encouraged to reflect on which god you might set out to follow from creation." Someone says in Harnic, "People without a faith, should have almost no say in general, the gods in Harn are -real- they are people witha deathwish and freaks. so perhaps, we can just leave it up to the PC priests to convert the faithless? im sure there is enough of them...Or you could burn the faithless too.." Revus: *chuckle* Burn the faithless heretics, yeah. Someone says in Harnic, "Those that do not believe in the gods should be shunned, in any area. Newcomers to the game should be guided to let them know that they should not disbelieve in the existance of the gods, that to do so is pretty much unthinkable and might get them burned. But, I do think people should be allowed to be undecided when they start, because it is nice to learn about such things in game." Someone says in Harnic, "I do think there should be some room for those who have not chosen a specific faith, but pay homage to many gods and goddesses, where legal in their region. They should also tithe to many gods if they profess paying homage to them, and attend services for many of them as well." Someone says in Harnic, "I'd just worry that the game would turn into another Tashal where there is little power for non-larnian faiths, thus little rp in this manner (which is how it should be via Harn rules) and is kinda boring and gets tired. Maybe there shouldn't be a discouragment but an encouragement..." Someone says in Harnic, "Having friends and people to help you out in need or watch your back is a good thing. Negative reinforcement might drive off players." Someone says in Harnic, "There are a lot of newbies who start out the game having absolutely no idea about what kind of in-depth religious world they've run into.." Someone says in Harnic, "..I feel that there should be as little punishment as possible directed towards players who claim to be "undecided" in their faith, because in almost every case, this is just a new player who needs some direction from the other players/character in game.." Someone says in Harnic, "..it's cool to want to burn the heretic of the world, I had a character who was new and who was hanged.. for reasons other than his faith, but his lack of faith was one of the things he was disliked for.. and it was a simple case of me not being fully aware of how important religion was in the world." Revus: Good point. Someone says in Harnic, "While it makes sense that anyone who has no faith in the Harn world would likely be considered very odd, in the game world of Harshlands MUD, I don't think dishing out heavy punishment for undecided faith PCs is a great idea." Someone says in Harnic, "Those undecided PCs, like many have mentioned, are a good source for converts and religions and moral debate between eplayers who have been around for a while." Quirk: Would everyone be supportive of being able to pick a deity at character creation? Nod for yes. Someone says in Harnic, "..between characters, rather. ." Someone says in Harnic, "In general i just have to say now that i agree to most. Though i would go as far as (depending a little on the number of PC cleric of course) letting all new characters start without faith. As long as they indeed do care to look for one then. Reasons likebefore mentioned RP for lots of people." Quirk: Vast support for addition to character creation, incidentally. Will add that to my infinite to-do list. Revus: We were thinking something along the lines of a brief description of the role faith plays and then a deity selection, with No Deity/Undecided as a choice. Someone says in Harnic, "What i dont like then though is to RP with people and they then running off to some NPC priest and converting. And tothe situation in the larani castle Tashal. To my knowledge there is one Larani cleric and 3 or 4 ilvir ones..... just as a side note." Someone says in Harnic, "With a possible 'no religion', but with a message with a clear warning against the choice." Someone says in Harnic, mild-mannered, "I believe everyone should follow a god, else it should be frowned upon Most of us are commoners and would come from a Peonian background. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the parents faith passed onto the child? In this way, maybe use Peoni as a spring board for new players, and also force them to realize the importance of faith?" Revus: Its very difficult for imms to legislate recognition of religion on players, we can provide the information and encourage folks to select a faith, or consciously choose to follow no-one. But beyond that, not sure. Someone says in Harnic, mild-mannered, "But then have the (new) character perhaps switch over as he comes to realize where he's true beliefs lie as he ages. Or is "religion hopping" frowned upon?" Someone says in Harnic, mild-mannered, "Isn't it a rarity/oddity to find someone without religion in Harn? I mean if you don't declare yourself to a faith, then it could be looked at as if your hiding something, maybe your faith ss proscribed in the land you live." Revus: The biggest improvement we can make here I think, is to make having no god a conscious choice, i.e. the player must choose to follow no-one before continuing with creation. Revus: Yes, its odd, thats why we're discussing it :-) Someone says in Harnic, mild-mannered, "So then why not force all players to be Peonians, as that would be the common background. It would make them learn about religion as well, and emphasize it is important in game play." Quirk: Alley bashers. Peonian RP. Nuff said? Revus: The majority of new players do not in any way conform to the tenets of Peonism. We understand your idea, but not sure it would work, they should get to choose something along the lines of their intended conduct. Someone says in Harnic, "In the same way we are born into races we can be born into religions." Someone says in Harnic, "There is enough, and more can be added, information on the web pages and at character creation to inform a newbie how to choose just like they choose race. Which religion matches which race best? This can be guided again at creation.." Someone looks around for the voices he seem to hear Someone says in Harnic, "Religion hoping should be very rare. When we are born in RL most of us but not all, are born into a religion. At some time in adulthood we affirm that choice.." Someone says in Ivinian, "Thanks *and disappears*." Someone says in Harnic, "I can see that happening in game but not hoping around between several religions or being born without one in the harn theme..." Someone says in Harnic, "Religion is strong in Harn." Someone says in Harnic, "The gods are alive." Someone says in Harnic, "Non religion would be unheard of ..help them choose at creation but make them choose just like witha race. Maybe I'm not to clear but I hope i made my point. Thanks." Someone says in Harnic, "I think a major part of the problem is that newcomers to the Harn world have the 21st century of religion, and by that I mean many people today do not take it as seriously as folks did a millenia ago." Someone says in Harnic, "And my beliefs or anyone else's aside, the gods in HL are very much alive, and they prove it often enough to know so." Someone says in Harnic, "It's a different mindset that I believe some don't recognize at first." Someone says in Harnic, fantastically!, "I am about to be a bit redundant, but here goes!" Someone mutter Someone says in Harnic, fantastically!, "The players need to be taken into consideration in this regard. Some people are not familiar with or do not enjoy any type of religious RP. Some are scared of it, frankly." Someone says in Harnic, fantastically!, "Just as I wouldn't want to RP a weaponsmith because I know nothing about it, some may not wish to RP a particular faith. Granted someone can be, say, Peonian and no one ever has to know it, but the principle is that it should be left to the player to RP religion or lack there-of." Someone says in Harnic, fantastically!, "Harn/HL culture can deal with faith/lack of faith, stereotypes and judge people all the same. We just have to establish what is typical of our culture and I think it's kind of clear that -most- don't take too kindly to those who follow no particular religion." Someone says in Harnic, "My opinion is....since the dawn of time, in every age, there has been religion. And there have been believers and unbelievers. To mandate a religion based on race, or on anything, I think is unrealistic. To suggest one, encourage one, yes. But to force one? In my opinion, that is completely unrealistic and leads only to false believers who betray their "faith" at the first chance out of mere spite." Quirk: All right, most important of the topics left is probably rights of clergy, and how they should be viewed. We've been at this a while now, so any comments should be as brief as you can make them. Someone says in Ivinian, in a low, clear voice with a warm undertone, "If i may say something.." Quirk: If you want to speak, petition up for the amulet. You'll be added to the queue and we'll get to you in turn. Someone says in Harnic, "Not to interrupt...amulet = turn to talk?" Quirk: Right. Revus: Ok, for a brief overview of how its supposed to work currently, the local law handles it when clerical privilege is greviously stepped on, at least they're supposed to Revus: If its a matter of heresy or breach of temple rights within the church, then the church itself handles its own business. Someone says in Harnic, "Ok my opinion is that the rights of the clergy are the rights that they perceive them to be. A Peonian in my opinion would claim no "rights", as they wish no power, only to serve. A Navehan would claim the right to kill if they so chose. The opinion of the lay person I think should be the same as their opinion of the God...only to a lesser extent." Someone says out of character "Then the church/religion need to promote such harsh ideas, and let people who claim to be a faith follower such payment of indulgence and actally in character effect" Someone says out of character "This way the people of that faith can feel the control of the order and that would be up to the individual pc to inforce their religion faith onto the followers they see performing such act" Someone says in Harnic, "Clerical privilege is not just some self-delusion of rights here, folks. It's the social standard of every kingdom on the isle." Someone says in Harnic, "Even the clergy of the least respected religion on the isle should be viewed with awe and respect. The gods are real. These are the vessels of the gods will and power. This also makes the faiths illegal to a certain area that much more terrifying. They're not just enemies to be squashed. The gods has sunk its fingers into your region." Someone says in Harnic, "It doesn't matter if you like that member of the clergy or not, you can and should still respect that person's position. If anything I've seen even the best roleplayers on here conveniently ignore the clerical office when it suited them. Even acolytes should be given their due." Someone says in Harnic, "I would, if anything, suggest that they be given even more rights and that they not just be implied. Right now, they're subject to interpretation, which means they're generally ignored rather than interpreted. I would really like to see this change." Quirk: Yes, people ignoring rights of clergy should face stiff social sanctions. The guard who arrests a clergyman should have a damn good reason; it could be his or her job on the line. Revus: This is something more for players to consider than imms, people know, or should know, the manner of conduct that is unacceptable when dealing with clergy. Those who ignore than deserve whatever they get. Someone says in Harnic, in a low, clear voice with a warm undertone, "I can imagine some of you would like to see ALL clergy men/women respected, wherever they are. ...the fingers of a god..." Blackhorde: We are not answering your petitions generally but you are being put on the list to speak if you ask it. Someone says in Harnic, in a low, clear voice with a warm undertone, "I find it hard to accept. Why not allow faiths, or followers to dispize eachother. To disrespect eachother." Someone says in Harnic, in a low, clear voice with a warm undertone, "It would be logic to be suspicious towards a person with a different believe. That is in this Harnic era." Quirk: Because they're clergy; because they are representatives of a god, and because they can work miracles. These aren't just laity. Someone says in Harnic, in a low, clear voice with a warm undertone, "Fear doesn't has to be the same as respect." Revus: Yes, no one disputes that those of opposing world views might loathe each other, this was more on how the representatives of those faiths are dealt with officially. Someone says in Harnic, in a low, clear voice with a warm undertone, "Alright to be brief. In my opinian a Morgathian priest shouldn't be treathed like a Laranian High priest in Kaldor or the other way around." Quirk: Yes, illicit religions will likely lead to your being burned. The rights of clergy only apply to legally recognised faiths. Revus: a morgathian priest wouldnt be well treated in kaldor at all, know. *chuckle* Sorry but we're trying to move on quickly and get a brief idea of a variety of people's thoughts Someone says in Harnic, "For me the first problem is, what are those rights/privileges? Those on the page like not to pay tolls? And my second problem is to the first speakers argument. How should it work with every faith wanting the rights of his god/godess how he/she perceives them?" Someone says in Harnic, "To me it sounds better to have some set basic rights for all religions not outlawed in a country. And hmmmm if its about transgression against clerics, yes i think it should be punished severely though i think, in my limited experience, that the clergy do get respect." Someone says out of character "What I found from the perspective of the common person was an understanding that regardless of the kingdom, or place, there was an understanding that you will engage members of all faiths, even proscribed. You might even encounter some direct demi-god servants of the various Gods." Someone says out of character "What I'd like to see is more faith based occurrances that could lead to people telling ghost-stories on the Night of Shadows, or tales of the Knights of Tirith on St. Ambrathas Day." Someone says out of character "Maybe if we all make them real, they'll be addressed and become part of the RP more." Someone says in Harnic, "Queue's that long? I have a couple of questions are we addressing the issue of the social status of the clergy?" Quirk: Yes. Quirk: This is a discussion of the rights of clergy. Someone says out of character "Sorry for the break in topic there, then" Someone says in Harnic, "I'm hearing that people want clergy on par with nobles as far as more rights." Someone says in Harnic, "I for one cannot vouch for that. I don't think the nobility will go for such a thing. I think that clergy as they are set in the rules are treated with appropriate social respect." Revus: Quite, the concern was that most players may not be paying much attention to the privileges that already exist. Someone says in Harnic, "To add onto that you have to justify why should the nature of the clergy be to expanded to include more rights not warrented to them." Quirk: Which rights are you referring to? Someone says in Harnic, "The clergy page clearly states what the 'rights' of the clergy are." Blackhorde: Revus mentioned this discussion is about players currently ignoring those rights. Anyhow, next... Someone says in Harnic, "If the secular law is ignoring those rights, why not correct the action?" Revus: In some cases it is, but alot of time its simply a matter of another PC failing to consider or roleplay something, is hard for staff to legislate such things *shrug* Someone says out of character "I first appologize for repeating anything. In a land where polytheistic views are everywhere, a varying degree of awe and respect is due to all the different levels of clergy of all the different religions." Someone says out of character "But how much should we respect those we do not relate to, those we do not follow or those we are outwardly violent against is an option for us each to decide. But we, by law of clerical rights should not be allowed to or be punished severely for acts against the members of all legal religions" Someone says out of character "From my experience NOT all clerics get the respect and awe they deserve, some might but not all do and never from everyone. And the law enforcement does little to enforce rights, even if they know But that is reasonable, they might not know. Clerics all don't wear neon signs proclaiming their stations" Revus: Nor do they all press the matter when treated poorly, the quickest way to lose a right is to not exercise it. Someone says out of character "changing or adding to rights of clergy is not nesicary, we just need to rework how to enforce them. " Blackhorde: Familiarity breeds contempt. Someone says out of character "if a cleric presses a point of a clerical right in the wrong town in the wrong way according to a single guard he/she might end up dead or in jail" Quirk: We will do our best to see any guards wrongfully killing or imprisoning clerics face appropriate punishment. Someone says out of character "leaving it open ended is just asking for trouble, individual kingdom rights of clergy, or church rights of clergy might help, but it has to be uniform to enforce or view correctly" Quirk: If a cleric is in a situation where they feel their rights are being breached, feel free to petition up about it. Blackhorde: And barring no answer, email. Revus: All good stuff, but players must realize that this is ultimately in their hands. We cannot _make_ you pay respect to a cleric, we can only deal with the aftermath Someone says out of character "perhaps that will help, but to do that brings in issues of ooc vs. ic and i hope we can always stay ic" Revus: Real change will only come when players modify their conduct so theres no aftermath to deal with. Quirk: Petitioning up to have an NPC ranking the PC animated to deal with PC misconduct is not going OOC to handle it. Someone says out of character "and with an increasing player base, it is hard to control them all, but we want to let all be free to make their own decisions, but start with a good basis of knowledge to respect those of power, or at least fear" Ok, next.. Someone says in Harnic, "I'd speak against 'universal' basic rights for clergy..." Someone says in Harnic, "I think rights for clergy are very much a matter of influence of a certain religion in a country or region." Someone says in Harnic, "As it's ultimately the 'worthly' power that enforces clerical law." Someone says in Harnic, "In Kaldor f.e. it'd be obvious that one better respects Larani and her clergy." Ok, next.. Someone says in Harnic, "On the other hand, the right of an Ilvirian priests might not weigh that much in .." geldeheim, yes, we know. Someone says in Harnic, "No, Tashal." Anywhere, really. *laugh* Someone says in Harnic, "So much for basic rights then :)." Just kidding, but point is we don't need to state the obvious as far as individual worshippers and stuff goes, we're addressing religion as a whole. Anyhow, next Quirk: Lesser, non-Laranian faiths are likely to be given less weight in Tashal, yes. However, an Ilviran or a Sarajinian would still be granted the basic rights of clergy in Kaldor. Someone says out of character "A Morgathian priest may not be liked by non-morgathians in regions it is not proscribed, but that priest will still be seen as a worker of miricles (or witchcraft)... " Someone says out of character "and still be respected/feared because of that. I don't think most people would piss off someone that can have fire come out of their hands, heal people, or raise the dead..." Someone says out of character "of course you still will have your meatheads on a quest or something :) ..." Someone says out of character "of course that's what 'miriclles' are for and if someone repedidly agrivates a priest, should not his god move against that person if the priest is faithful..." Someone says out of character "after a bit of this players will get the message..." Someone says out of character "also it should be mentioned when creating a character, something about dire concequences might occur." Revus: No, gods do not enforce clerical privilege. Its a social thing, anyhow Someone says in Harnic, "I propose a minimum amount of rights for all clergy, dependent on where they are and placed on the webpage. We can't even agree right now at this meeting what the standard should be, it seems." Someone says in Harnic, "Furthermore, I disagree that players alone can enforce this. If they could, we wouldn't be talking about this right now." Someone says in Harnic, "In fact, I haven't seen a single social stigma in the game that could be enforced solely by players." Blackhorde: Armor law set in place by Byron of the guard. Someone says in Harnic, "So much falls through the cracks in our societal interactions right now that it often gives me the impression that they don't matter to many." Revus: Maybe not solely, but this is not something that we can mandate alone, otherwise its just another imm-imposed rule that people will whine about constantly. There needs to be players towing the line. Someone says in Harnic, "Clergy should not have to suddenly unleash miracles for their place to be cemented into society. They're not just a bunch of wacky spellcasters who pray and practice self-flagellation. They're the social leaders of the isle and one of the most educated classes." Someone says in Harnic, "I agree. I think both staff and players need to cooperate in this venture." Revus: You say they "can't", I say they "won't" or at least don't right now. Someone says in Harnic, "I've been on other muds where it was enforced. It was pointed out someone was doing something out of place to the setting as often as could be possibly done. Eventually, this took care of most of the nay-sayers who thought they could rationalize their way out of any course of action." Revus: Taking themselves more seriously would be a good start, in order to be respected one often needs to behave respectably. Someone says in Harnic, "And that really is what we're talking about here. People will argue about anything." Someone says in Harnic, "At least once or twice per rl month, I see something happening to a pc clergyman that irks me. They're not being treated with the dignity of their class." Someone says in Harnic, "Leaving it up to interpretation just gives someone the rationale to ignore it." Revus: Well pointing out alot of stuff OOC can be a detriment, is sometimes necessary, but ideally this should be mostly IC. Revus: And alot of time, those clergy bring it on themselves by conducting themselves poorly, or far outside the norm for their faith. Someone says in Harnic, "Ideally. But I've seen so little conform to the ideal on the game in recent years." Someone says in Harnic, "I believe even Ilvirans and Haleans should have some minimum set of rights." Revus: And typically, when we try to "point out" to them, we catch ten kinds of hell about it. So it does need to be a two-way street. Someone says in Harnic, "Maybe if it was made law it would be enforced more strictly." Someone says in Harnic, "In all honesty, those people should pay more attention to the people running the game." Revus: I'd agree, but everyone's got a rationale for everything, like someone said, heh Someone says in Harnic, "For anyone who does that, they've obviously never seen the "divine retribution roll" dice a gamemaster keeps in their velvet pouch for players who give them lip." Someone says in Harnic, "Done." Quirk: Last comment on this. Someone says in Harnic, "I have to agree with Revus there i think. Those who act respectable get respect." Someone says in Harnic, "I see many who do get respect, and many who dont. And i also see its usually their own fault. And i think it should not be forced on anyone." Quirk: All right. Time has worn on long enough. Next topic: Newbie friendliness. We will only be handling 4 or 5 comments, so petition now if you wish to speak. Quirk: After that, everyone who wants to depart can do so, and we'll summon up a feast for those hungry and parched folk. Someone says in Harnic, "Well, I for one remember the first time I created a character. It was pretty difficult at times. What if we had two separate creation processes? On for newbies, containing alot more information and easier to use, and one more advanced, for players who have died recently and so on?" Quirk: All right, got all the people who'll comment filled. Blackhorde: Que is full, sorry. Someone says in Harnic, "Also, one idea might be to have a few people who play here often help out a bit. It's a shame to see such vast experience go to waste. Perhaps a channel only available at creation that other people already in play have access too, to help with questions when no admins are there." Someone says in Harnic, "Using an ooc channel that is global would be a bad idea, but perhaps one that is very limited could work in some way." Someone says in Harnic, "From my experience, the help newbies receive has gotten much friendlier." Someone says in Harnic, "I started out as a terrible RPer, and so forth, but I've grown into it a bit more over my time here." Someone says in Harnic, "I was intimidated by folks telling me, in other words, that I was bad at playing this game, and so forth. It was discouraging." Someone says in Harnic, "I'd like if we continue on the track of keeping newbies corrected when they are not fitting the world correctly, but guiding them in the right direction, as well, and not scolding them for something they didn't know in the first place." Someone says in Harnic, "Accessibility and the speed of the game." Someone says in Harnic, "Certain organizations and things such as crafts should be made more and easier available to players." Someone says in Harnic, "I've seen quite some new players go, because they were tired of waiting in a sort of 'in-between-'stage." Someone says in Harnic, "It's not always easy to get a hold of the proper player of a certain organization or to get things thru with the imms :)." Someone says in Harnic, "There are a couple of concepts in Harshlands MUD that are unique to the game, such as the "notify" command, that might be well-placed inside the newbie starting FAQ. I'm thinking the FAQ could use a general update to the questions in it. A craft like.." Someone says in Harnic, "..cooking (the only I've experiemented with recently as a new player) expends your resources with each failure.. I'm still not sure if there's a proper way to get the entire complete list for needed components. Things like that, crafting, notify, a couple of other things I noticed, could be written up on that FAQ or elsewhere,." Someone says in Harnic, "I am sure I could think of a few things that would be extremely helpful to new players, but that have been overlooked in certain starting areas of the game. Refining what's presented to newbies during char creation would help them tremendously." Blackhorde: materials "craft name" will help you. Someone says out of character "I agree that on the whole, people are VERY newbie friendly here. Most of the points I was going to raise have been raised: Some sort of newbie-dedicated chat." Someone says out of character "I've used the *ducks Revus' blow* ICQ method of helping newbies quite often" Someone says out of character "I'd much rather have an in-game option to easily describe the commands and general playing functions/atmosphere of the game" Quirk: All right, anyone who doesn't want to be seen here when the lights come on, return now. The rest of you will get fed and watered. Quirk: Sorry we didn't get to comment on all the agenda items, but it's taken a while.